Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Revised Conversations in "Anglicanland"

This is sort of a continuation of a theme Mark Harris posted on his blog, ammended with comments added by a conservative named Phil... It's how I see the listening process.

Orthodoxy and Revisionist walk to the center of the stage from opposite sides of the room. Both men are wearing boxing gloves and headgear.

Orthodoxy: You aren't Christian!" Swings at Revisionist.

Revisionist: ducking We're listening. Why not?

Orthodoxy: Swings again. You are glorifying sexual immorality! You are allowing people who chose to be homosexuals to be bishops!

Revisionist: gets hit in the mid section. Oof! We hear you, but we disagree. We don't believe it is a choice.

Orthodoxy: hits Revisionist in the nose. But the Bible says it is! You are going against 2000 years of Church teachings!

Revisionist: Ouch. We believe that "love thy neighbor as thyself" trumps that. We feel the Holy Spirit is moving us into a direction of love and understanding. Haven't you read Galatians 5?

Orthodoxy: Swings again. We don't believe you! It is immoral and icky! We're leaving!

Revisionist: ducking again. But we can make accomodations for you! The Anglican Communion is big enough for all of us!

Orthodoxy: kicks Revisionist in the groin. We don't want that! We are the right church! You aren't Christian!

Revisionist: jumps back. Where have we heard that? But we are the right church too! One body, many parts?

Orthodoxy: punches Revisionist in the face again. We're taking the buildings!

Revisionist: suddenly angry, swings at Orthodoxy. That's IT! If you want to go, FINE! But for heaven's sake, leave the buildings!

Orthodoxy: throws himself on the floor, crying. No fair! You aren't being inclusive! Why won't you listen to us?

*****Rinse, lather, repeat*******


Erika Baker said...

The last comment could include the line "why are you persecuting us!"

Göran Koch-Swahne said...


Jim said...


Someone should stage this at GC! Call it, "Orthodox Anglican on Love!"


Lauralew said...

This is funny--and very sad.

David |Dah • veed| said...

HB, I think that this is a different Phil, one from Virginia.

Deacon Phil from Dallas always signs his posts YBIC.

Arkansas Hillbilly said...

Thanks for the catch Dah*veed! I corrected the post.

Phil said...

Hillbilly, I’m glad I could be a foil for your post, although I think it’s worth pointing out that most of what you’ve written above are not my comments. And you’re right: I’m not the same Phil as Deacon Snyder of Dallas.

It’s interesting that you chose not to respond to the intent of my original comment at Preludium – namely, that revisionists are equally culpable in being uncharitable to their mainstream opponents. You’ll recall, also, that the original drawing at Mark’s site insinuated that it was the mainstream saying, “Can’t hear you.” To the contrary, it’s the revisionist side that speaks of how there’s been no “listening process” – essentially, that the Anglican Communion is not listening, because, if it did, of course it would agree with you – even as it ignores the counsel of the wider Communion, and the unbroken witness of the Church.

We have listened, ad nauseum, to the point that we could recite your (conflicting) arguments better than could you. We do not agree.

I wonder, also, how it is that you portray the revisionist side as the one being violently attacked? Surely, you’re aware that your side controls the entire leadership of ECUSA and can do what it likes, whether those in the Anglican mainstream like it or not. You own it. You’re also likely to win just about every property-related lawsuit. In short, those that still hold to mainstream Christian moral teachings are the ones being marginalized and forced out of their parishes, and, possibly, out of their faith tradition altogether. The advantage is all to you. This reality is turned on its head in your post. If, as is possible, you hold the liberal conceit that disagreement is equal to physical violence, then practice what you preach, and stop calling your opponents “bigots.” This, too, was a point made in my original comment.

Arkansas Hillbilly said...


I find it interesting first of all that you call the "orthodoxy" side the mainstream. It has been my experience that most mainstream Episcopalians fall on the "revisionist" side of the fence. You do raise some intersting questions, and I will try to answer what I can:

In your original post on Mark's blog, one of the quotes is that we are glorifying sexual behavior in the face of 2000 years of Christian teaching. This is part one of our disconnect and you fail to listen. You fail to listen when we insist that same sex attraction and same sex unions are not immoral. You have refused to listen to the witness of the members of our churches who are in these unions. It is you who are not listening to the voices of those you are calling immoral. You insist instead of falling back on the "2000 years of Christendom" and passages in the Bible that reflect the views of a society that we would call barbaric today. It is YOU who aren't listening. I have listened to your arguments, and hear them every day. Your arguments do not make sense in the face of 200 years of scientific research and the witness of LGBT Christians.

Again, our idea of what "mainstream" is seem to be two different things. As I said earlier, most Episcopalians I know and have talked to agree with the "815 crowd". If by mainstream you mean those who separated themselves from the Episcopal Church, I can hardly call them Episcopalian, having left the church, much less mainstream.

Also, the Episcopal Church has bent over backwards in the last few years to accomodate the "orthodoxy", even going so far as to offer "alternative pastoral oversight" to those who like Mr. Iker who could not accept a woman as primate and for those who could not accept the ordination of Bishop Robinson. And you are correct that according to the Dennis Canon, the property belongs to TEC and is held in trust by the dioces, parrishes and missions. That is why the lawsuits will be won.

You are going to find that in the "mainstream" your position that same sex attraction and committed, monogamous same sex relationships are immoral is dying out. We are slowly realizing that the old ideas about LGBT's is wrong, just as we were wrong in believing the earth was the center of the universe, a band of water separates Heaven from Earth, and that interracial marriages are sinful. These ideas were also church teachings at one time or another.

As far as calling those who disagree with me a biggot, if you insist on relegating people into the margins of society or refuse them the love of Christ because of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex or physical or mental handicap, then you are a biggot and I will call you on it. If this does not apply to you, the don't accept the moniker.

In short, Phil, you are correct that both sides may be at fault. However, our position is one that comes from the Love of Christ, the witness of our baptised LGBT members, and our understanding of what the Holy Scriptures really mean. Or at least that is my position. Yours is different, and we may never see eye to eye.

Anonymous said...

Revo and Ortho should be buried up to the waist. No features on the set. Revo wears a tie-dyed tee shirt. Ortho wears a red and white striped tee shirt. I imagine it as "Waiting for Godot" meets "Jesus Christ, Superstar".
My word verification is: fighte! I am not kidding!